HIFICRITIC audio review magazine
HIFICRITIC FORUMS
Current Issue
HIFICRITIC
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

34 Pages«<45678>»
Share
Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline ashleym  
#101 Posted : 30 January 2013 20:18:11(UTC)
ashleym


Rank: HIFI God

Joined: 02/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,124
Location: uk

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)
Originally Posted by: darkmatter Go to Quoted Post
More on field coil drivers


For example why are they so expensive? I understand the low production volumes but how much does an electro-magnet cost?

Offline Martin Colloms  
#102 Posted : 31 January 2013 08:26:03(UTC)
Martin Colloms


Rank: Moderator

Joined: 15/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,077

Was thanked: 49 time(s) in 48 post(s)
That is exactly the point

A ferrite magnet SEAS audiophile driver made in thousands per year may be $50 trade before taxes

If it existed an EM version without power supply ( and they are big supplies ) in likely sales volumes would cost

say $100 since the copper field coil winding is more costly and time consuming than a ferrite ring.

It weighs much more so we have transport costs. Then we need a low noise power supply and additional cables, at this quality level at least $200 trade.

Without trying, the EM magnet driver is already six times more costly and more limiting in application.

And you have to show that in particular application there is a sound quality benefit scaled to the cost increase


Martin Colloms

Edited by user 01 February 2013 09:58:46(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Simon Briggs  
#103 Posted : 31 January 2013 20:06:11(UTC)
Simon Briggs


Rank: Administrator

Joined: 19/09/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,424
United Kingdom
Location: UK

Thanks: 37 times
Was thanked: 11 time(s) in 10 post(s)
Note this thread is only to post suggestions YOU would like the Critics to review.

If you want to discuss something else, start a new thread

Thanks!!
Offline Simon Briggs  
#104 Posted : 31 January 2013 20:12:28(UTC)
Simon Briggs


Rank: Administrator

Joined: 19/09/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,424
United Kingdom
Location: UK

Thanks: 37 times
Was thanked: 11 time(s) in 10 post(s)
The Rega RP8 TT
Offline kengale  
#105 Posted : 31 January 2013 23:04:22(UTC)
kengale


Rank: HIFI God

Joined: 25/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,331
Location: UK

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 8 post(s)
Originally Posted by: ashleym Go to Quoted Post
How about this from KEF, a smaller version of the LS50 with USB input for computers etc?

http://www.kef.com/html/...olutions/x300a/overview/

(the link button isnt working)


Shame it doesn't have TOSlink or HDMI so that you could use it with your TV/PVR - or perhaps that's another model. And I wonder why only Windows 7 or above - there must be loads of people running Vista/XP who see no need to update.
But definitely the way to go.
Offline Simon Briggs  
#106 Posted : 03 February 2013 12:12:51(UTC)
Simon Briggs


Rank: Administrator

Joined: 19/09/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,424
United Kingdom
Location: UK

Thanks: 37 times
Was thanked: 11 time(s) in 10 post(s)
Budget DACs again

This one is very cheap

http://www.beresford.me/products/TC-7530DC.html
Offline Pete_w  
#107 Posted : 04 February 2013 13:07:17(UTC)
Pete_w


Rank: HIFI God

Joined: 28/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,052
Location: Cambs, UK

Thanks: 13 times
Was thanked: 11 time(s) in 11 post(s)
Originally Posted by: kengale Go to Quoted Post
And I wonder why only Windows 7 or above - there must be loads of people running Vista/XP who see no need to update.


Testing. Too many historic interface changes. Too many variants. Too hard. People expect USB to be plug'n'play. XP's USB subsystem was, don't forget, the origin of the phrase "plug'n'pray". My favourite software package (from a company the size of Adobe) got dumped from XP last year, forcing me to upgrade. They cited test load on that obsolete OS, pure and simple. Damn glad I did upgrade, Win7 much better.
Offline jostber  
#108 Posted : 04 February 2013 19:11:18(UTC)
jostber


Rank: HIFI Guru

Joined: 04/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 295
Norway

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Ocellia Calliope .21 Twin Signature loudspeakers

http://www.ultrahighendr...n-signature-loudspeaker/

Offline hifi addict  
#109 Posted : 04 February 2013 23:47:37(UTC)
hifi addict


Rank: HIFI Guru

Joined: 26/09/2008(UTC)
Posts: 340
United Kingdom
Location: Hasting/Crete/London

Thanks: 1 times
Wave Kinetics Turntable.

UserPostedImage
Offline Martin Colloms  
#110 Posted : 05 February 2013 13:49:16(UTC)
Martin Colloms


Rank: Moderator

Joined: 15/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,077

Was thanked: 49 time(s) in 48 post(s)
..........there is some beautifully engineered stuff out there ..


The question is 'Do the designers sound quality priorities align with yours?'

or even ' Beautifully engineered from first principles, but were they the right principles?'

I can think of a number of features taken to the extreme which were later found to have unbalanced the whole .

MartinC
Offline ashleym  
#111 Posted : 05 February 2013 14:12:33(UTC)
ashleym


Rank: HIFI God

Joined: 02/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,124
Location: uk

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)
Perhaps we need a what and why for new product suggestions?
Offline kengale  
#112 Posted : 05 February 2013 19:23:57(UTC)
kengale


Rank: HIFI God

Joined: 25/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,331
Location: UK

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 8 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Martin Colloms Go to Quoted Post
..........there is some beautifully engineered stuff out there ..


The question is 'Do the designers sound quality priorities align with yours?'

or even ' Beautifully engineered from first principles, but were they the right principles?'

I can think of a number of features taken to the extreme which were later found to have unbalanced the whole .

MartinC


Surely if a turntable was engineered from first principles it would be a parallel tracker, as that's the way the orginal disc was cut. No amount of "beautiful" engineering of a pivoted arm will get round the tracing distortion caused by the geometric mismatch between the recording method and the replay method.

Obviously it's not easy designing a parallel tracker, but at the prices these "audiophile" decks command the problems should be soluble.

Offline Pete_w  
#113 Posted : 05 February 2013 20:42:19(UTC)
Pete_w


Rank: HIFI God

Joined: 28/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,052
Location: Cambs, UK

Thanks: 13 times
Was thanked: 11 time(s) in 11 post(s)
Originally Posted by: kengale Go to Quoted Post

Surely if a turntable was engineered from first principles it would be a parallel tracker,


And do non-contact playing. In an age where we can find, and extract DNA from, and identify a body that's been buried under a car park for over half a millenium, why do we need to drag a bit of rock hopping, skipping and bouncing across the bit of plastic?

The answer to my own question, of course - "why do we need to...?" - is "R&D dollars vs potential sales".

Offline Stratosphere  
#114 Posted : 05 February 2013 21:54:36(UTC)
Stratosphere


Rank: HIFI Novice

Joined: 10/05/2009(UTC)
Posts: 77
United Kingdom
Location: Mid Sussex

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Originally Posted by: kengale Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Martin Colloms Go to Quoted Post
..........there is some beautifully engineered stuff out there ..


The question is 'Do the designers sound quality priorities align with yours?'

or even ' Beautifully engineered from first principles, but were they the right principles?'

I can think of a number of features taken to the extreme which were later found to have unbalanced the whole .

MartinC


Surely if a turntable was engineered from first principles it would be a parallel tracker, as that's the way the orginal disc was cut. No amount of "beautiful" engineering of a pivoted arm will get round the tracing distortion caused by the geometric mismatch between the recording method and the replay method.

Obviously it's not easy designing a parallel tracker, but at the prices these "audiophile" decks command the problems should be soluble.



Which is the reason I suggested the 'Thales' Simplicity tone arm, being designed to overcome the arc error, and be free from parallel tracking engineering difficulty. The principle of the Swiss Thales is that the cartridge pivots between two independent arm tubes, reducing arc distortion to 0.008*. One of a few efforts to use this principle.

Edited by user 05 February 2013 21:59:30(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline ashleym  
#115 Posted : 05 February 2013 22:28:48(UTC)
ashleym


Rank: HIFI God

Joined: 02/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,124
Location: uk

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Stratosphere Go to Quoted Post


Which is the reason I suggested the 'Thales' Simplicity tone arm, being designed to overcome the arc error, and be free from parallel tracking engineering difficulty. The principle of the Swiss Thales is that the cartridge pivots between two independent arm tubes, reducing arc distortion to 0.008*. One of a few efforts to use this principle.


Another (or THE other) would have been the Garrard Zero

Zero

Offline kengale  
#116 Posted : 05 February 2013 22:34:57(UTC)
kengale


Rank: HIFI God

Joined: 25/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,331
Location: UK

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 8 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Stratosphere Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kengale Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Martin Colloms Go to Quoted Post
..........there is some beautifully engineered stuff out there ..


The question is 'Do the designers sound quality priorities align with yours?'

or even ' Beautifully engineered from first principles, but were they the right principles?'

I can think of a number of features taken to the extreme which were later found to have unbalanced the whole .

MartinC


Surely if a turntable was engineered from first principles it would be a parallel tracker, as that's the way the orginal disc was cut. No amount of "beautiful" engineering of a pivoted arm will get round the tracing distortion caused by the geometric mismatch between the recording method and the replay method.

Obviously it's not easy designing a parallel tracker, but at the prices these "audiophile" decks command the problems should be soluble.



Which is the reason I suggested the 'Thales' Simplicity tone arm, being designed to overcome the arc error, and be free from parallel tracking engineering difficulty. The principle of the Swiss Thales is that the cartridge pivots between two independent arm tubes, reducing arc distortion to 0.008*. One of a few efforts to use this principle.


It doesn't quite eliminate the problems though. Although the geometric tracking of the cartridge is such that it is effectively always parallel to the groove, its centre-line projected doesn't go through the arm's pivot centre, with the result that you still get radial tracking forces. The Simplicity attempts to cancel these with inbuilt magnets, but of course these forces vary with the depth of modulation of the groove, so cancellation is very approximate. And of course putting pivots out at the cartridge end adds quite a lot to the effective mass of the arm.

Very confusing calling it Thales: I used at one time to work for Thales (ex Thomson CSF) and it took me a little while to twig that the arm was alluding to the same gentleman as the company was, rather than being made by them!

Offline hifi addict  
#117 Posted : 06 February 2013 09:12:38(UTC)
hifi addict


Rank: HIFI Guru

Joined: 26/09/2008(UTC)
Posts: 340
United Kingdom
Location: Hasting/Crete/London

Thanks: 1 times
There seems to be a bit of resurgence on direct drive Turntables. Such as the Kodo Beat, Wave Kinetics and Monarch. It would be interesting to see how these these compare to high mass belt drive TT's and Critic popular bouncy über modded trampolines.

Monarch Direct Drive

kodo Beat

Offline Martin Colloms  
#118 Posted : 06 February 2013 10:21:12(UTC)
Martin Colloms


Rank: Moderator

Joined: 15/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,077

Was thanked: 49 time(s) in 48 post(s)
'Turntables and arms' will run and run .

With audibly detectable mechanical modulations at the wavelength of light it is not hard to comprehend that quite small unwanted vibrations, noise and coupling will be audible.

An infinite variety of solutions are proposed to address the numerous and often interactive mechanical problems. Often these solutions introduce more problems than they solve.

A designer needs great mechanical engineering skills and acute musical appreciation so that every step is goal directed to better sound quality, not to solve an isolated issue.

When reviewing multiple tone-arms over a several month review period I became hyper tuned to adjustment.

I could easily hear the torque level for cartridge mounting screws, and for some combinations there was a best sounding value, and it was more than often not, not hyper tight.

Designers have to maintain an awareness of a real world balance and not get sold on a particular feature that only they can fix.

There are no quick fixes and sheer mass and pretty machining may be far from the optimum in some cases.


Martin Colloms

Offline ashleym  
#119 Posted : 06 February 2013 11:22:19(UTC)
ashleym


Rank: HIFI God

Joined: 02/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,124
Location: uk

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)
Originally Posted by: kengale Go to Quoted Post

Surely if a turntable was engineered from first principles it would be a parallel tracker, as that's the way the orginal disc was cut. No amount of "beautiful" engineering of a pivoted arm will get round the tracing distortion caused by the geometric mismatch between the recording method and the replay method.

Obviously it's not easy designing a parallel tracker, but at the prices these "audiophile" decks command the problems should be soluble.



Or is it damping at the cartridge end a la Rock?
Offline Martin Colloms  
#120 Posted : 07 February 2013 09:03:02(UTC)
Martin Colloms


Rank: Moderator

Joined: 15/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3,077

Was thanked: 49 time(s) in 48 post(s)
there is no quick fix

head dampers solve one problem but add others ,

resulting in a performance balance, and a balance of opinion.

Damp the head to control cartridge 'flutter'


and impose greater forces at lower frequency , for a greater duration , on the stylus tip as it tracks pinch and vertical warps


Flutter may blur definition, lower frequency modulations appear to affect the sense of timing.

Solid turntables have strong deep bass with low colouration but are also coupled to the environment which can subtly degrade the noise floor and the sense of lifelike dynamics.

Each designer will have particular preferences and will plough particular furrows. There aren't many all rounders.

Martin Colloms
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
34 Pages«<45678>»
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Follow HIFICRITIC Email HIFICRITIC follow HIFICRITIC on Twitter Follow HIFICRITIC on Facebook